Wireless Positioining System

Hi,

I am looking for a wireless positioning system. I would have a mobile transmitter (beacon) and fixed receivers to calculate the position of the beacon. Does anyone have any experience or suggestions to solving this problem? I am very interested in direction finding, or triangulation using radio signals. I used ultrasonic location in the past, however the transmitter had to be facing the receivers to actually work. I would like the beacon to be at any orientation, and be able to accurately find the location. I am looking for a very cheap solution, very expensive ones exist.

Thanks in advance,

Studie

If you’re looking for GPS-like precision, indoors, to make a long story short, RF is not viable.

The more research I do the more I hear Ultrawideband is the leading technology for indoor positioning. I looked up a development kit from one company and it was $10,000. Anyone else know of any off the shelf IC or system that uses this technology?

I’m assuming you are saying RF is not viable because of reflections. How do cellphones operate indoors?

-Adam

If you could find a technology that actually did this and WORKED I would be super super interested. But yes, reflections and the like generally make RF positioning possible, but very poor resolution and spotty accuracy.

OP: if you describe your goal, perhaps we can suggest a practical alternative.

My goal is to output x,y coordinates of the transmitter. The problem is how do I accurately track the position of the user? Could I use a Wifi module that sent time stamps and then calculated an accurate distance from that information? Is there any type of device that gives a tunable accurate range strength or angle? For example, the transmitter is 1 ft from the receiver and outputs a steady rss of 10.0. the transmitter is 20 ft from the receiver and outputs a steady rss of 1.0. Maybe there are other methods I’m not thinking of? If GPS can work from 40,000 at less than 5m accuracy, why isn’t it thousands of times easier to implement this method in a single room/building?

Thanks again,

Studie

studie:
My goal is to output x,y coordinates of the transmitter. The problem is how do I accurately track the position of the user? Could I use a Wifi module that sent time stamps and then calculated an accurate distance from that information? Is there any type of device that gives a tunable accurate range strength or angle? For example, the transmitter is 1 ft from the receiver and outputs a steady rss of 10.0. the transmitter is 20 ft from the receiver and outputs a steady rss of 1.0. Maybe there are other methods I’m not thinking of? If GPS can work from 40,000 at less than 5m accuracy, why isn’t it thousands of times easier to implement this method in a single room/building?

Thanks again,

Studie

why isn’t it thousands of times easier to implement this method in a single room/building?

lol. Because you don’t have millions of dollars worth of atomic clocks to do the time keeping for ya!

I had a neat idea for your situation awhile back.

Basically you’d have >2 receivers running highly directional antennas. The antennas would be a fair range away from the transmittter and mounted on rotating poles controlled by a stepper motor or a servo motor. The angles would be pre calibrated so they all know what ‘zero degrees is’ and thus are referencing the same axis. The antenna tracks the object using RSSI as its directional indicator.

If you have >2 angles in a triangle and you know at least one of the sides then the law of cosines means you can figure out everything else. Of course, you may lose track of your object here and again, in which case the receiver will have to ‘sweep’ to find it again. That is where having a third receiver helps out. Also, you are going to have some irregularities in your data, so you can combine the calculations based on all your receivers and then do some statistical analysis on it (average, throw out data >1 std.dev. from the mean, etc etc)

Tackling this problem using RF time pulses as a time base is near impossible. I wracked my brain for several months trying to figure this one out. It’s not possible to do with any decent accuracy without crazy amounts of expensive equipment involved.

You mean like this:

http://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokb … 10055C80D/

studie:
My goal is to output x,y coordinates of the transmitter. The problem is how do I accurately track the position of the user? Could I use a Wifi module that sent time stamps and then calculated an accurate distance from that information? Is there any type of device that gives a tunable accurate range strength or angle? For example, the transmitter is 1 ft from the receiver and outputs a steady rss of 10.0. the transmitter is 20 ft from the receiver and outputs a steady rss of 1.0. Maybe there are other methods I’m not thinking of? If GPS can work from 40,000 at less than 5m accuracy, why isn’t it thousands of times easier to implement this method in a single room/building?

Thanks again,

Studie

In time difference of arrival methods (TDOA), aka multilateration, the relative range and bearing can be determined (not absolute). Problem is, TDOA requires a few nSec of precision and that's very costly, and to synch all receivers to that precision. So companies like Ekahau, Time Domain, Wherenet and others sell TDOA systems. Atomic clock references like GPS satellites use isn't done for these vendors' products. Instead, they share a synch signal, usually via cat5 to each fixed unit. And some jazzy nanosec precision pulse leading edge DSP chips. The challenge is in non-line-of-sight, where the direct path (attenuated) is not the strongest signal.

Simple RSSI (signal strength) in low power RF cannot provide, with ideal line of sight at all times, better than about 50 ft, due to the laws of physics: Inverse Square Law in RF propagation. And due to that math, the precision degrades related to the log of the distance. Happy it works that way so we can talk to satellites millions of miles away. If attenuation vs. distance was linear, we’d couldn’t.

Ultrawideband is useless at more than 50 ft or so due to the extreme low power rules from the FCC and the very high frequencies.

A way to do what you want: strong IR diode on the moving unit. Two or more IR-sensitive TV cameras. Digitize the TV rasters. Do the photogrammetry - focal length of lens, distance between cameras, location of diode’s signal within the 2D TV raster, etc. It’s been done. Best to have the IR diode emit an ID code in pulses, and the analysis software does an FFT on the raster to find the coded pulses amidst noise.

Another technique is ultrasonic transducers, but these are limited to about 20 ft.

Another (costly) method in use is magnetic flux fields: fixed units emit lines of flux. moving unit detects the flux lines and does the trig. Pulse coding tells the receiver which sender is which and there’s a priori knowledge of where the senders are.

One more: line-scanning lasers, immobile. Detect reflected pulse coded light from the target. Do the trig. Companies sell these for creating 3D line drawings of inside buildings, and the like.

It a’int easy, indoors. GPS does penetrate some one story buildings without too much multipath. But it’s marginal. Remember that GPS is like 20dB more sensitive after it finds the satellites (code correlates) and then goes into tracking mode. This is called post-detection correlation gain. If your GPS receiver can be “told” which satellites are overhead (and what codes they are using is implied by the satellite’s ID), it can warm-start easier. But there’s that catch-22 before code lock where much stronger signals are needed. Some good GPS receivers have clever assisted-GPS methods for this.

biff44:
You mean like this:

http://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokb … 10055C80D/

wow! Yes!

Thank you for the detailed responses. Since my maximum distance from beacon transmitter to receivers is 20ft, couldn’t RSSI on a simple RF link be used to approximate the distance from each receiver to the transmitter? The application will have very few obsticles other than the person wearing the transmitter.

What about some type of looping wireless data link. If a data packet is sent back and forth say 100k times. Wouldn’t that require a less sophisticated clock to compare the round trip time? I would think that all this could be figured out experimentally if any of these methods are viable.

Of course feel free to crush my dreams further :slight_smile:

studie:
Thank you for the detailed responses. Since my maximum distance from beacon transmitter to receivers is 20ft, couldn’t RSSI on a simple RF link be used to approximate the distance from each receiver to the transmitter? The application will have very few obsticles other than the person wearing the transmitter.

What about some type of looping wireless data link. If a data packet is sent back and forth say 100k times. Wouldn’t that require a less sophisticated clock to compare the round trip time? I would think that all this could be figured out experimentally if any of these methods are viable.

Of course feel free to crush my dreams further :slight_smile:

If you read about the laws of physics here, your'll see how real your dreams can be. :!: