I looked inside a $1 calculator from Wal-Mart, and their “PCB” was nothing more than a thin sheet of clear plastic with black traces (some sort of carbon ink most likely).
Has anyone tested the conductivity of standard Laser printer toner? I understand that it’s mostly carbon.
I wonder if this would be a cheap way to make non-critical flex circuits.
I’m pretty sure it’s not regular toner. If I’m not mistaken, laser printers use plastic based toner, and plastic is not conductive. I’ve seen those kinds of circuits, I’m not quite sure what they are.
Those PCBs probably use screen-printed conductive ink. Laser printer toner is definitely non-conductive - it needs to be, since the drum uses electrostatic attraction to pick up the toner, and conductive particles would dissipate the charge.
MichaelN:
Those PCBs probably use screen-printed conductive ink. Laser printer toner is definitely non-conductive - it needs to be, since the drum uses electrostatic attraction to pick up the toner, and conductive particles would dissipate the charge.
That’s a good point. My thought though was that there might be enough carbon so that after it runs through the fuser, the particles would be arranged in such a way to make it at least slightly conductive. I expect that its conductivity would be low, but I still wonder how low.
Of course if they are not using carbon to make the toner black, this all flies out the window!
Well, you can just put a multimeter on “ohms” and measure some paper that has printing on it. However, I can guarantee you won’t see any conductivity. I suppose if you put thousands of volts you might see something, but I don’t think that would be practical…
MichaelN:
Well, you can just put a multimeter on “ohms” and measure some paper that has printing on it. However, I can guarantee you won’t see any conductivity. I suppose if you put thousands of volts you might see something, but I don’t think that would be practical…
Tried this myself using a DMM on the first day of this thread. As expected, it’s not conductive. If there was any conductivity at all, it was beyond the range of the DMM to measure.
Now, anticipating the logical follow-up to the OP’s question… What if someone was to take an inkjet printer and replace the ink with some kind of conductive ink? Let’s say for example something like this: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/produc … B100000001
The key would probably be to find something that the inkjet would tolerate without plugging up or failing to flow properly or just outright ruining the print head.
Like this?
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2004/11/4366.ars
http://global.epson.com/newsroom/news_2004_11_01.htm
Wow. 2004. Too bad nothing seems to have come out of this for general use.
smbaker:
MichaelN:
Well, you can just put a multimeter on “ohms” and measure some paper that has printing on it. However, I can guarantee you won’t see any conductivity. I suppose if you put thousands of volts you might see something, but I don’t think that would be practical…Tried this myself using a DMM on the first day of this thread. As expected, it’s not conductive. If there was any conductivity at all, it was beyond the range of the DMM to measure.
Now, anticipating the logical follow-up to the OP’s question… What if someone was to take an inkjet printer and replace the ink with some kind of conductive ink? Let’s say for example something like this: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/produc … B100000001
The key would probably be to find something that the inkjet would tolerate without plugging up or failing to flow properly or just outright ruining the print head.
The cheapo Epson on my desk claims 600dpi x 1200dpi, which as far as I understand means the printhead would have to be something like 0.0016" x 0.0008." So it could work if the conductive ink’s particle size is significantly smaller than that, but that’s a pretty big “if.”
A Xerox Phaser might be able to do it as its “toner” is more like a solid block of wax that gets melted onto the page. They aren’t cheap, though. A pen plotter would make it trivial, but not too many people have those sitting around.
It’s starting to sound like screenprinting would be easier, if there is a cheaper way to make a conductive ink. $323 for 125g is definitely out of reach of a normal hobbyist!
A bunch of people have had success printing ink directly onto a copper-clad PCB (using an inkjet printer with CD-printing abilities), and then etching. I realise that the etching is an additional step, but it’s not that bad! It’s even possible to do soldermask & component overlay with this method.
MichaelN:
A bunch of people have had success printing ink directly onto a copper-clad PCB (using an inkjet printer with CD-printing abilities), and then etching. I realise that the etching is an additional step, but it’s not that bad! It’s even possible to do soldermask & component overlay with this method.
Perfect! I’m surprised the ink is able to withstand the etchant. Anyone have a source for flexible copper-clad material?
You need check what inks are suitable - the default inks are not necessarily OK (as well as ability to withstand the etchant, they tend to "bead" on the copper surface, rather than forming a nice layer).bcgrown:
MichaelN:
A bunch of people have had success printing ink directly onto a copper-clad PCB (using an inkjet printer with CD-printing abilities), and then etching. I realise that the etching is an additional step, but it’s not that bad! It’s even possible to do soldermask & component overlay with this method.Perfect! I’m surprised the ink is able to withstand the etchant. Anyone have a source for flexible copper-clad material?
Sorry, I don’t have links, but remember seeing online discussions - some people spent a lot of time to find the right inks.
MichaelN:
You need check what inks are suitable - the default inks are not necessarily OK (as well as ability to withstand the etchant, they tend to "bead" on the copper surface, rather than forming a nice layer).bcgrown:
MichaelN:
A bunch of people have had success printing ink directly onto a copper-clad PCB (using an inkjet printer with CD-printing abilities), and then etching. I realise that the etching is an additional step, but it’s not that bad! It’s even possible to do soldermask & component overlay with this method.Perfect! I’m surprised the ink is able to withstand the etchant. Anyone have a source for flexible copper-clad material?
Sorry, I don’t have links, but remember seeing online discussions - some people spent a lot of time to find the right inks.
Would [this be the one? Can’t read through it all right now, but it sounds impressive. I bet some flex materials could even be fed right through an unmodified printer.](Slowing 216.66.8.36&c=1&t=45481.4386354167)
bcgrown:
MichaelN:
Sorry, I don’t have links, but remember seeing online discussions - some people spent a lot of time to find the right inks.Would [this be the one? Can’t read through it all right now, but it sounds impressive. I bet some flex materials could even be fed right through an unmodified printer.[/quote]
Yes, that was the page I’d seen before. As you can see, some people have put plenty of time into figuring this out!](Slowing 216.66.8.36&c=1&t=45481.4386354167)
I recently saw a video where someone printed directly on some old glossy magazine pages, then ironed it onto copper clad, soaked it in water and everything came off, except for the where the traces were. He did a standard FC bath and the magazine paper held up. Has anyone else gave this a try? What I didn’t see was whether he was using an ink jet or laser printer for the trace printing.
EDIT:
Ah! Found this: http://www.riccibitti.com/pcb/pcb.htm
rpcelectronics:
I recently saw a video where someone printed directly on some old glossy magazine pages, then ironed it onto copper clad, soaked it in water and everything came off, except for the where the traces were. He did a standard FC bath and the magazine paper held up. Has anyone else gave this a try? What I didn’t see was whether he was using an ink jet or laser printer for the trace printing.EDIT:
Ah! Found this: http://www.riccibitti.com/pcb/pcb.htm
While that’s nifty, the point of this discussion was to identify ways to make the process simpler, not more difficult.
Honestly, if your're wanting to try an iron-on method I'd suggest going with a product specifically designed to do the job. You can waste a lot of time mucking around with glossy photo paper / magazine pages etc.rpcelectronics:
I recently saw a video where someone printed directly on some old glossy magazine pages, then ironed it onto copper clad, soaked it in water and everything came off, except for the where the traces were. He did a standard FC bath and the magazine paper held up. Has anyone else gave this a try? What I didn’t see was whether he was using an ink jet or laser printer for the trace printing.EDIT:
Ah! Found this: http://www.riccibitti.com/pcb/pcb.htm
I use “press’n’peel blue”, and it works well. I understand there may be better products out there too.
MichaelN:
Honestly, if your're wanting to try an iron-on method I'd suggest going with a product specifically designed to do the job. You can waste a lot of time mucking around with glossy photo paper / magazine pages etc.rpcelectronics:
I recently saw a video where someone printed directly on some old glossy magazine pages, then ironed it onto copper clad, soaked it in water and everything came off, except for the where the traces were. He did a standard FC bath and the magazine paper held up. Has anyone else gave this a try? What I didn’t see was whether he was using an ink jet or laser printer for the trace printing.EDIT:
Ah! Found this: http://www.riccibitti.com/pcb/pcb.htm
I use “press’n’peel blue”, and it works well. I understand there may be better products out there too.
I never said I was looking for a way to do it. I am aware of the Press n’ Blue transfers. I was simply sharing a link to A PROCESS that I found. Take it or leave it.
Even when the information is free and handed right to them, people get picky! If the answers are not up to your standard, learn to use Google. :?
Um, not sure what I did to annoy you, but I apologise. I appreciate such info, and have tried such things with mixed sucess before - I was simply sharing *my experience*, which people can also "take it or leave it"...rpcelectronics:
MichaelN:
Honestly, if your’re wanting to try an iron-on method I’d suggest going with a product specifically designed to do the job. You can waste a lot of time mucking around with glossy photo paper / magazine pages etc.I use “press’n’peel blue”, and it works well. I understand there may be better products out there too.
I never said I was looking for a way to do it. I am aware of the Press n’ Blue transfers. I was simply sharing a link to A PROCESS that I found. Take it or leave it.
Even when the information is free and handed right to them, people get picky! If the answers are not up to your standard, learn to use Google. :?
MichaelN:
Um, not sure what I did to annoy you, but I apologise. I appreciate such info, and have tried such things with mixed sucess before - I was simply sharing *my experience*, which people can also "take it or leave it"...rpcelectronics:
MichaelN:
Honestly, if your’re wanting to try an iron-on method I’d suggest going with a product specifically designed to do the job. You can waste a lot of time mucking around with glossy photo paper / magazine pages etc.I use “press’n’peel blue”, and it works well. I understand there may be better products out there too.
I never said I was looking for a way to do it. I am aware of the Press n’ Blue transfers. I was simply sharing a link to A PROCESS that I found. Take it or leave it.
Even when the information is free and handed right to them, people get picky! If the answers are not up to your standard, learn to use Google. :?
Sorry, I quoted the wrong post.
While that’s nifty, the point of this discussion was to identify ways to make the process simpler, not more difficult.