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1

I happened across BatchPCB when browsing the SFE site. It looks like just the ticket for my current project since I need a few one-off prototyping boards and will probably iterate through a few design changes.

I’m a hobbyist and have been using ExpressPCB with their proprietary software. Design changes have been painfully expensive. However, their layout software is excellent. It’s very easy to use with about zero learining curve.

I understand BatchPCB requires industy standard Gerber files to process orders. I’m new to this process and am finding it a bit overwhelming.

I tried Eagle and was dismayed to find how steep the learning curve is with this program. I honestly think they purposely designed it to be as difficult and clumsy as possible to use. A few hours of swearing at the monitor convinced me to look for a better way.

After kissing a few more frogs, I found a product called Sprint-Layout. This software is brilliant. It has almost no learning curve and does everything in a simple intuitive way. The downside is the demo is not fully functional. The program costs 40Eu or about $60US.

Has anyone used Sprint-Layout to create orders for BatchPCB? The software is wonderful to use and I plan to go with it.

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Greetings (No First Name Supplied),

CraigHB:
I’m a hobbyist and have been using ExpressPCB with their proprietary software. Design changes have been painfully expensive. However, their layout software is excellent. It’s very easy to use with about zero learining curve.

I understand BatchPCB requires industy standard Gerber files to process orders. I’m new to this process and am finding it a bit overwhelming.

All board houses will accept Gerber and Excellon formats,

these are ad hoc industry standards created by the first

players in the CAD/CAM PCB arena (and Gerber has since

been sold and no longer participates).

ExpressPCB is a closed source. (I suspect they decode their

customer’s designs and use Gerber and Excellon formats

in-house). Clearly, they don’t want you to use their tools

with other vendors.

CraigHB:
I tried Eagle and was shocked to find how steep the learning curve is with this program. I honestly think they purposely designed it to be as difficult and clumsy as possible to use. A few hours of swearing at the monitor convinced me to look for a better way.

How did you conclude that EAGLE was purposely not user

friendly? Seems to be a typical UI for that technology,

and its cross-platform to Linux. The UI could be improved

but once you have master one or two designs the EAGLE

software is very good value and has been designed to

support (and well as create) PCB CAD/CAM projects.

CraigHB:
After kissing a few more frogs, I found a product called Sprint-Layout. This software is brilliant. It has almost no learning curve and does everything in a simple intuitive way. The downside is the demo is not fully functional. The program costs 40Eu or about $60US.

The only question you should ask is whether the tools

can output Gerber and Excellon format files. All other

considerations pale if you can’t work with a board

house of your choosing.

Comments Welcome!

3

Peter,

Although I don’t want to argue the point. I too felt as if Eagle had a bad user interface. I had done quite a few designs with it, until I decided it was time to buy a program.

I did not go with Eagle, although it is pretty robust in it’s capabilities.

I did decide to go with Diptrace. It is a major difference, but I like it’s user interface much better.

James L

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How did you conclude that EAGLE was purposely not user friendly?

Well, "user friendly" is a rather subjective term. For me, Eagle is a good example of how *not* to design a user interface. Eagle doesn't seem to utilize the fundamental paradigm of point and click. However, I suppose if you are willing to invest the time and use it regularly, there's no issue there. I'm not willing to do that especially when I may have to re-learn the program after being idle with it for some time. If I can't master a program in one sitting, it usually ends up in the circular file.

The only question you should ask is whether the tools can output Gerber and Excellon format files.

Yes, Sprint-Layout outputs the Gerber and drill files in the specified format, but I haven't tried to submit an order so I'm not sure if everything is compatible with BatchPCB. That's pretty much my question in the OP.

Thanks for your comments.

5

CraigHB:
Yes, Sprint-Layout outputs the Gerber and drill files in the specified format, but I haven’t tried to submit an order so I’m not sure if everything is compatible with BatchPCB. That’s pretty much my question in the OP.

Thanks for your comments.

Craig,

On point of advice from me…

Any software you choose, may perform the task that you need at the moment, but make sure you will not out grow the software in 3-6 months. This happens everyday to people…the further they progress in their design abilities, the less options are available with the software they purchased.

I actually used Eagle for a long time before I switched. The switch was pretty painful, but I got through it. I was educated enough to know what to look for and what I would need in the future.

Try to be opened minded about what you will need in the future…you may be surprised later if you are not.

James L

6

Thanks for the advice. Sprint-Layout does lack some features of more expensive professional layout suites. However, it’s cost is relatively small so I figure I’ll at least get my money’s worth out of it. I can always look for something more advanced down the road if I need to, especially when talking about an investment in the hundreds of dollars.

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Greetings (Still No First Name Supplied),

CraigHB:
Well, “user friendly” is a rather subjective term. For me, Eagle is a good example of how not to design a user interface. Eagle doesn’t seem to utilize the fundamental paradigm of point and click.

Not to labour the point any further, you have answered

your own question. You seek a point and click UI. While

EAGLE has that capability the EAGLE power users work

with the CLI (Command Line Interface). Also, EAGLE

has a ton of ULP (User Language Programs) that

perform complex repetitive functions with one or two

CLI instructions. The EAGLE CAD/CAM engine is only

one button for BatchPCB compatible output files.

Echoing James’ point, as your skill advances you too

will out grow a hobby level tool. EAGLE was created

shortly after PCB CAD/CAM tools ran on engineering

workstations (Sun, SGI, HP). The EAGLE GUI is actually

similar to OrCAD, Cadence, P-Cad, etc.

In the real world a fair amount of PCB “design” is

really cut and paste to change feature sets or implement

ECNs (Engineering Change Notcies) as vendors and

components come and go, and improvements are

made to existing designs.

Sounds like you have committed to a tool, hopefully

you can format the Gerbers to use BatchPCB

(not sure if your new tool is on the approved tool list).

Comments Welcome!

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Hehe, I think I’ve gotten out of the habit of using salutations in forum messages. Apologies if that seems rude. My name is Craig.

Anyway, I can see the power of that type of program and am not unfamiliar with script and CLI based interfaces. However, it doesn’t make sense for me as a hobbyist to put a whole lot of time and energy into the software I use. I’m not trying to say that Eagle is a “bad” program, just that the UI seems overly complicated and convoluted for what I need to accomplish. I can do what I need a lot faster and easier with a traditional point and click interface.

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Greetings Craig,

CraigHB:
I can see the power of that type of program and am not unfamiliar with script and CLI based interfaces. However, it doesn’t make sense for me as a hobbyist to put a whole lot of time and energy into the software I use.

I would think it doesn’t make a lot of sense for a hobbyist

to invest in costly tools, or have to bear the cost and delay

to repeat prototypes due to silly errors. EAGLE is well

established and users share tips, tricks, libraries, and ULPs.

CraigHB:
I’m not trying to say that Eagle is a “bad” program, just that the UI seems overly complicated and convoluted for what I need to accomplish.

Then ask Leon_Heller to recommend PCB tools.

Who said this in the OP?:

CraigHB:
I honestly think they purposely designed it to be as difficult and clumsy as possible to use.

EAGLE is far from perfect, but if you really want to stir

things up, the EAGLE community will respond…

Comments Welcome!

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bigglez:
EAGLE is far from perfect, but if you really want to stir

things up, the EAGLE community will respond…

Comments Welcome!

Peter,

Don’t get your panties wadded… :smiley:

I don’t think he was making a professional statement about eagle, but more of his personal feelings toward it.

I personally feel the same way, but I do know how powerful a program Eagle is.

There were a couple of different things I didn’t like about Eagle, but it’s not important. I chose a software that would meet my needs for years to come.

We can’t expect the new guys to appreciate the software that we know fluently. They must find something that suits them. Some will find (later) that they need more than they bought.

As for a perfect software…on my search…I never found one that was perfect, they all require me to learn them, and they didn’t do the work alone. There are also trade offs for each different brand…unless you want to spend $1000’s …

James L

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Craig,

I use Sprint Layout and agree that it is intuitive

to a Windows user. If you enjoy laying out PCBs

directly it is a pleasure to use.

As for Eagle: counting the number of "How does…

Why does… What does Eagle?" questions on this

forum alone may give you an idea of how much

fun it is to use.

Frank

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Greetings Frank,

SAN:
As for Eagle: counting the number of "How does…

Why does… What does Eagle?" questions on this

forum alone may give you an idea of how much

fun it is to use.

Looking at it from another point of view, EAGLE has

a large user base that can answer all of the newbie

questions seen on this forum.

If EAGLE’s reputation is for not being “user friendly”,

why are so many new users here (and turning out

pro level projects on their first try)?

You have a choice. If EAGLE is not for you, please

don’t knock it.

Comments Welcome!

13

I too found Eagle somewhat difficult to use, when I started from scratch.

But really, what software HAVEN’T you had trouble with the first few times you used it? Let alone software to do something as specialised as PCB layout. Nobody instantly knows how to create styles and do tricky formatting in Microsoft Word, I bet everyone’s first few documents were just some text on paper.

Most professionals that use specialist software, for example I regularly use 3D CAD, FEA and CFM software at work, get proper training (I think I have done at least a week on all the packages I use) before they can use it efficiently and to it’s full capacity.

When you start using Eagle, use are using a professional quality tool (nearly 100% of the pro features are in the freeware) and you have absolutely no training/help.

That said, the current release of Eagle (4.16 I think) I do find sometimes non-intuitive, because it doesn’t follow Windows “standards” for copy and paste for example. I have played with the Beta for release 5, and to their credit Cadsoft have improved this aspect, and it will therefore be easier for users who are starting from scratch.

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trialex:
But really, what software HAVEN’T you had trouble with the first few times you used it?

I would have to say that *most* software I can pick up and learn to use proficiently in one sitting. I don't think specialty software has to be hard to use only because it performs some sort of niche function. I believe it's simply a matter of some desire on the software designers' part to follow modern traditional conventions (.i.e. point and click).

I have several niche programs that I find very easy to use. A good example would be Microchip’s MPLab. I have a CAD program called TurboCAD and it’s very easy to use.

Fortunately, there’s choice out there and most software engineers don’t insist on using interfaces designed for archaic dated operating systems. The argument that these products are also designed to run on *nix systems isn’t going to hold water for me. All the software toolkits used for *nix GUI development have the same capabilites as MS Windows. There really is a standard there.

If Eagle is the best software out there for PCB design, then more power to them and the people that use it. But for whatever the justification, the program’s GUI does things in a non-standard way making it difficult and clumsy to use. I’m just glad I dont’ have to use it.