Another way to make us very angry

Archive BatchPCB
1

Original customer email:

Dear Ben,

We have received the pcb only late last week.

We found two big problems in it; both concern holes and

slots that where not cut-out from the pcb.

Over the week we inspected from where this problems emerged

and how to diminish the damage.

We found:

The holes that were supposed to be cut-out from the pcb,

were not mentioned properly in the Gerber files. There for

the editor took the blame, and fixed the original files.

The slots that were supposed to be cut-out from the pcb,

were mentioned upon the Gerber files, but weren’t executed

by spark-fun.

This problems has created a big delay in our r&d department.

further more, the time table for receiving the shipment

from spark-fun were far beyond schedule .

We ask you to help us solve this problems as quickly as can

be, and manufacture a version-2 of the original design

attached below as soon as possible.

Ben's response:

Hello May,

I’m sorry you had trouble with your design. I’m also sorry if you experienced a delay. We provide the PCB service on little or no margin mainly for hobbyists. It should not be used for anything that is on a deadline. In fact, on our information page (http://www.sparkfun.com/shop/index.php? … 525&cat=86&) we state TWICE:

Please do not use our service if your project has a deadline. We cannot expedite orders. We cannot guarantee delivery dates. If you need time-sensitive service, please use Advanced Circuits or another fab house.

If you would like to produce another design feel free to place another order and supply the order number with your files. Keep in mind I will not be able to review your files until this Friday, and delivery will be 10 to 18 days after that (domestic United States). At that time I will only be forwarding on the files without checking for cutouts or other possible errors. As we state on the order page, “We cut and paste your design exactly as is - no touchups.” We look forward to your order but if any of the mentioned conditions create a problem for you I would suggest using Advanced Circuits or another fab house.

Thanks,

Ben

What did we learn from this? More and more companies, institutions, people running their own business, etc. are using our service. While it was started for hobbyists and students, we will provide this service for anyone who is willing.

My question for the forum: How do we beat an education into people like this?

-Nathan

2

I think you’re doing a fine job. You provided the caveats up front on your ordering page, and then responded to their unreasonable demands by suggesting they go use Advanced Circuits, in a polite and professional manner. From my point of view, you have enough happy customers that you do not need to bend over backwards for every customer that makes unwanted demands.

Ideas?

Well, I might move the caveats to a section with a header of it’s own, and place it right next to the ordering button. Right now, the warnings about deadlines is mixed in with marketing hype about how you don’t limit the number of holes, etc. A lot of times when I’m reading and I hit marketing hype, I skim right past until the next section.

I’d probably add to the caveats section that all custom PCBs are sold AS-IS and without any warranty. This guy seemed to think he could get another board free just because he didn’t get all the holes (his fault) and slots cut (also his fault for assuming sparkfun even does slot cutting). At the price SparkFun is charging, customers need to take all the risk for any manufacturing mistakes, even if the customer may not think it is their own fault.

My Philosphy:

When I order from SparkFun, I always try to order at least two or more identical PCBs so that if some minor mistake happens to one of the boards during the entire process, from initial idea to fully assembled prototype device, I’ve got my bases covered. It doesn’t matter if a mistake happens to be from SparkFun, Gold Phoenix, or my end – at this pricing it’s still my risk alone. If I can fix the mistake myself by drilling my own holes or cutting my own slots, I will. If it’s not fixable, I’ll submit a fresh new order and pay the fee again (it’s not like these prices are going to bankrupt me).

I don’t care about the long wait time. These are custom, one off, PCBs. This means that when I submit my order, some poor guy has to physically look at my design and build it from scratch. This is not like Burger King, where they’ve got a stack of identical burgers already designed and fully built, ready to hand out immediately once you’ve placed your order.

I use the waiting time to begin work on a new project, which will be submitted later, probably once my first order comes back. Keep a pipeline of projects going and you’ll have something to play with all the time. No need to get your panties all in a bunch over how long it takes for your boards to come back from manufacturing.

3

Thank you zilym! Exactly what we needed to hear.

Pete and I try to have a new SFE proto design every week for Ben to panelize in the corner. While one PCB is getting fabbed we work on the problems found in the board made the previous week. Keep one design ahead in the skunk works and I can manage to keep Pete very busy :wink:

-Nathan

4

Good, Pete’s got too much time on his hands :slight_smile: I hope to experience a wonderful month of fretting soon myself, but I’m in the middle of moving into a new house and figuring out how to pay the bills. And I still have to sit down and figure out gEDA or Eagle.

I have to agree, Ben handled that correctly, and putting in either a list of caveats near the submit button or even a popup yes/no box that lists a short form of the common major complaint stifling bullets.

5

Nathan,

please PLEASE don’t let a few naysayers cause you enough grief that you shut down. There’s tons of us out here that drop an order in every week or so, get our boards back, and are generally thrilled with the service you provide.

You’ve done an excellent job of stating the caveats with your service, and if customers can’t live with them, they don’t need to be customers.

I beg of you, don’t let these malcontents ruin it for the rest of us. For small-area boards, there is absolutely no service like this one. Olimex is reasonably priced if I’m willing to spend $40 (I can get quite a few of my teeny boards on a eurocard), but their shipping sucks. $9 to wait three weeks, or $55 to wait two weeks. I get USPS shipments from you guys in two days (Get the ‘your order has shipped’ email on tuesday, boards are in the mailbox thursday).

Advanced circuits wants like $40 APIECE to manufacture my 1.2 square inch board in quantities of 10. I don’t have $400 to drop on prototype PCBs! They have lower qty orders available, but sans mask and silk. I require mask and silk.

Getting into production pricing, advanced wants in the neighborhood of $4/board in 100qty for that same board. Considering that I can put 122 of them on a GP panel for $109, why would I bother with Advanced?

In short, there’s nowhere else to go where I can spend $15-25 at a time and get fully-featured, beautiful boards. So, thank you guys, very very much.

6

Hey Nathan, I’ve bought quite a bit of stuff from you this past couple years for my small consulting business and I think you guys do a great job and have really helped me out many times by providing hard to get items at a reasonable price.

Soon, I’ll be trying your PCB service mainly because I have several tiny boards I need to prototype and every other “proto” PCB house I’ve looked at just hammers you on price for small boards. Of course, I have read your online descriptions and I’m not expecting them to come in quickly and that’s OK – I’m planning around that.

I buy a lot of prototype boards and I can suggest a good vendor for someone who needs 2, 4 or 6 layer boards that are high quality, reliable delivery and a reasonable price: [PCBfabexpress

I’m not trying to push your competition – although I kind of doubt you would view them that way – they really serve a different but somewhat overlapping market. They have very good board quality, prices and delivery. Their standard delivery is a 5 day turn (i.e. you get them a week after your order is placed). They have a 5 piece minimum and a few other manufacturing related restrictions, but their “per piece” prices are quite reasonable. For me, I usually am ordering at least 3 or 4 boards so the 5 piece minimum isn’t a big deal nor should it be for most businesses or even serious hobbyists. I’ve ordered lots of 2 and 4 layer boards from them and found them to be very reliable. I also use Advanced PCB sometimes – their quality is top notch but their prices are a bit steeper and they have more restrictions on their $33 special boards than PCBfabexpress does on their standard 1 week proto boards. Advanced PCB can’t even come close on multilayer boards.

I always run my gerber files through freedfm.com online DRC before I order from any vendor and I’ve never had problems with boards that come through that process clean.

Just a suggestion for those that can’t live with somewhat uncertain delivery dates from Sparkfun and are willing to pay a bit more but get guaranteed delivery times.

Oh, and I agree with tmbg above – don’t let the whiners get to you. As I’m sure you guys realize by now, no matter how hard you try to please the customer there are always some that you’ll never please no matter what you do. I think you guys provide a great PCB service and I commend you for hanging in there to this point. Keep up the good work!](http://www.pcbfabexpress.com)

7

I agree with pretty much all of the sentiments above. Expanding and maybe highlighting the caveats on the order page is a good idea, as well as perhaps putting a second “ARE YOU SURE” page after clicking “Add to Cart”.

Also, to minimize the impact on you guys in the future when this happens, how about creating a stock form letter that you could send to anyone complaining about gerber errors or shipping times? Just hit reply, cut and paste, and zoom, they’re off.

I just ordered my first board using your service last week… the shipping time isn’t a big issue for me either. I’m using the time to finish up the PIC code that the board will be running once it gets here!!! Thanks for providing this service to us hobbyists… I just know it’s going to be like Christmas morning when I open the envelope with my professional-looking custom PCB. :lol:

8

No worries about shutting down the PCB service. We’ve struck a nice medium with the $5 newbies and $2.50 returning customers (well, this week anyways).

We post our frustrations on the forum and your great responses help us along - thanks!

Always, always shop around. Advanced circuits were my buddies for many years in college. They used to allow me to panelize a 10"x14" panel for $33, and as a student, I only had to order one. Needless to say, I managed to fill up quite a few panels before I graduated. Their quality is imaculate and 5-day turn is day definite.

Never used PCB Fab Express, but the owner or general manager emailed me the other day asking that we link from the PCB page to his site. I didn’t respond to his email… There are lots of PCB options out there. I’m just here to help the students and you guys, the crazy hobbiests. If we help out a couple consultants as well, no big deal. Please buy some dev tools from us as well :wink:

-Nathan

9

sparky:
They used to allow me to panelize a 10"x14" panel for $33, and as a student, I only had to order one. Needless to say, I managed to fill up quite a few panels before I graduated. Their quality is imaculate and 5-day turn is day definite.

Is this deal still available? It sounds too good to be true.

Any tips on creating a panel? Obviously your parts arent routed to shape, do you have to use tabs or V scoring? Any tips on creating tabs?

Thanks for the advice,

Vern

10

Hey Vern,

No tabs, no mouse bits, no anything. I had to use a PCB guillotene (sp?).

Check the 4PCB website and give them a call. I know the PCB size came way down because of raw material increased costs.

-Nathan