BatchPCB needs help

Archive BatchPCB
1

Hi all,

Hey David - this is a question for you as well so please chime in.

It’s post like this one : viewtopic.php?t=9606 that kill us.

We’re trying to keep the good times alive. Right now we are receiving drill files of all walks of life. 20-40% of orders have a problem with the drill file. Either it does not line up with the design or we simply cannot get our software to interpret the drill file correctly. This is causing an increasing number of delays, problem orders, and understandably upset customers.

We ask the customer to give us their drill file format when they submit their design, but often, customers do not know.

Is there a way that we could build in either an interpreter or a checker into the DRC bot so that we code translate the customer’s submission into a known good drill format?

How would you solve this problem? Can you help us?

-Nathan

2

Your Eagle tutorial is excellent - perhaps writing some very basic tutorials for other popular design programs (with a specific focus on exporting drill files, I imagine) would help reduce the problem.

While it doesn’t help the DRC bot any, I think it would cut down on people submitting invalid/impossible-to-interpret files.

If you can’t get the software yourself, I imagine users on the forum could probably submit one or two images showing how to export the correct drill file.

3

Random:
Your Eagle tutorial is excellent - perhaps writing some very basic tutorials for other popular design programs (with a specific focus on exporting drill files, I imagine) would help reduce the problem.

While it doesn’t help the DRC bot any, I think it would cut down on people submitting invalid/impossible-to-interpret files.

If you can’t get the software yourself, I imagine users on the forum could probably submit one or two images showing how to export the correct drill file.

Ramdom, don’t take this the wrong way, but if people would read the tutorials, they wouldn’t submit a design the wrong way.

Everyone should check their designs with a Gerber Viewer, no matter what software they design in.

That is what I believe is happening, people are not reading through information to see if they can learn something, and it causes problems.

I do not mean to take it out on you, but due diligence is needed when ordering something as complex as a PCB or assembly.

I know my company will also hit these boundries…and our company doesn’t have the man power or the time, to make a tutorial for every different design software out there.

James L

4

As another thought, in order to aid the BatchPCB process. Why not have an option to cancel pending orders on the BatchPCB site, that way, if a customer finds a problem with a design, or for whatever reason, needs to cancel an order it’s a simple click ‘n’ confirm process to do it.

Of course you would only be able to cancel the order in the Pending stage and not once it’s been panelized.

I have used the service, and I do think it’s a great way to order small quantities.

5

just throwing out some ideas…

-So, you guys receive a design with a drill file in some unknown format. However, it must be at least one format. So, maybe parse the file assuming each format and display them in different colors at the same time. Then you can see which one(s) line up the best and use that one.

-In the same way, you can automatically throw out the format that provided drill hits well outside of the largest gerber file feature. (unless it’s a non-plated hole, which I don’t think you guys do?)

-try to correlate between round pads on the top/bottom gerber files with drill hits in the drill file.

-throw out bad designs and force the customer to look into it :-/

Would also be nice if the bot could read a little more ‘liberally’. ie, my PCB program outputs the tool ID with 3 digits, not 2 like most. I have no idea how to change this in my program :frowning:

T007C00.020
vs.
T07C00.020

A while back I wrote a very rudimentary gerber viewer & editor. However, it mostly only worked with files from the other program I was using at the time. So I do have some experience with gerber/drill file parsing. Other than the above, I’m really not sure how else I’d figure out what format a drill file is in.

-Dave

6

Nathan,

The bot could be modded to parse + spit out normalized drill files. Checking alignment with the other layers wouldn’t be an impossible task, but making sure the basic scale is right + checking the format is easier. I sent you an email RE: that, give me a shout if you want me to look into that.

Cheers,

–David Carne

7

I also believe that part of the issue is due to inexperienced/new users. Admittedly, it takes a bit of work to find out what all of the different terms are and mean. That said, I think that SparkFun being a hobbyist’s best friend, and that a lot of hobbyist’s don’t do electronics engineering for a living, a lot of us are still learning the ropes, yet, are the majority of SparkFun and BatchPCB’s customers.

Tutorials will help the situation, but I believe that a lot of the responsibility should rest on the hobbyists shoulders to learn how this industry works in the real world.

I’m all for keeping BatchPCB around, I think it’s a great and invaluable service. If there’s anything I/we can do to help, just let us know. I’m experienced in all sorts of programming/scripting (C++/Java/PHP/SQL), granted anything I can provide won’t be first priority, I’m still willing to do whatever I can, and I think many others will as well.

Just my $0.02.

Wishing everyone a happy weekend!

-Nate (btw, there seem to be a lot of Nathan/Nate’s here, kinda odd, but interesting, =)

8

sparky:
Hi all,

It’s post like this one : viewtopic.php?t=9606 that kill us.

-Nathan

As the owner of the thread please understand that I have sympathy for batchpcb as i am a hobbyist and i know how hard/expensive it can be doing electronics as a hobby. I think batchpcb is a great idea, and i want to support it.

The problem is, with all do respect, this is a business transaction, i am not your friend. If you say you have a board placement time and don’t meet it, you aren’t providing the service you required. On top of that I emailed at least once, and got no response about my boards. I had to “threaten” on the forums to even raise a head… If you ordered a product and pre-paid and you didnt recieve any news about your dispatch, and the company said they would call you on Day X and they didn’t, i’m sure you’d be pissed too.

It’s not posts like mine that kill you guys, it’s a lack of communication complexed with a service not provided as you guaranteed, that puts a strike against your name.

This will not be the last time I order from batchpcb I hope, because I would like to be supportive and proactive about your service. But you guys seriously need to rehaul the entire service and concepts. You guys need to start considering this as a serious commercial venture, and leave the not-for-profit services for charities for starving kids. You can still keep your prices low and fair to compete with other prototype services like olimex, without having to cut corners so much that you cannot even keep your customers notified about thier products.

9

Does the DRC bot display the drills (both placements and sizes) on the images it returns to the customer? I’ve only sent a PCB to the bot once and didn’t end up having the board ordered anyway, but I don’t remember seeing any drills on the images.

If the drill location and sizes were displayed on the images, it would allow the customer to confirm the drills or correct incorrect drill files. One would think this would save BatchPCB some validity checking (roughly translated as: ‘can blame customers for approving an incorrect drill file’).

Just an idea.

10

It’s not posts like mine that kill you guys, it’s a lack of communication complexed with a service not provided as you guaranteed, that puts a strike against your name.

Not in my mind! Sparkfun has stated from the get go....

but I guess you weren’t around for that…

11

Greetings Nathan,

sparky:
It’s post like this one : viewtopic.php?t=9606 that kill us.

Unfortunately you will always have demanding customers.

What I got form the thread is the complaining customer

was not aware of the progress (or non-progress) being made

by BatchPCB for their order. This is an area where BatchPCB

can improve! (Even if adding more staff or investing in staff

training or greater automation drives up the service prices).

sparky:
Right now we are receiving drill files of all walks of life. 20-40% of orders have a problem with the drill file. Either it does not line up with the design or we simply cannot get our software to interpret the drill file correctly. This is causing an increasing number of delays, problem orders, and understandably upset customers.

This problem is very serious to the entire BatchPCB

community as the economy of scale comes from pooling

small jobs and any delay for one customer affects the

entire panel which is going to affect many customers.

I suggest that any order not meeting the correct submission

format should be rejected from that batch, and taken off-line

for further discusion and resolution. The delay should apply to

the erroneous submission, not the entire panel.

sparky:
We ask the customer to give us their drill file format when they submit their design, but often, customers do not know.

Sounds as if the submissions are handled by a

BachPCB operator? Without further automation the non-conforming

submissions should be rejected and returned to the owner

for correction.

12

Hi! My name is Sallie and I am the person at SparkFun/BatchPCB who generally deals with all of the drill files.

As a general rule, I do not design or make my own PCBs, nor do I know how to use the software, so I can only understand how things look on my side of BatchPCB - receiving and panelizing your orders.

Each day, I see how many orders we receive, looks at them briefly and attempt to add them to the batch. Recently, almost every morning I am finding that people are submitting boards that are not correct. They are missing multiple layers, the drill files are in the incorrect format, or they do not align with the other layers.

I am also receiving more “please cancel my order” emails every day.

When placing an order with BatchPCB, due to the nature of the service, it may be panelized and sent that same day. I go through each morning (and sometimes throughout the day as well) adding boards to panels. If your board happens to fit in a hole, the panel will be sent immediately - meaning that I can’t refund your order. In general, before submitting a design I would strongly recommend checking and re-checking your work. Most of the time, within 24 hours, I can refund it and remove it from the batch, but we can’t guarantee that.

As far as the drill files go, we are working on adding a part of the bot so that it will check the drill files. If I can’t read the drill files, I send an email. to the customer asking for the correct file. That board then moves to a “problem list” that I keep. As this list seems to be growing at an alarming rate, we need a better way to fix these errors. I do not want to immediately cancel orders when I can’t read the drill files, but I also do not want to hold up panels or other customers - it is a growing problem.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Sallie

13

I don’t use Batch PCB, but I would have thought that customers would have checked their PCBs using something like GC-Prevue. That will show up many of the problems you are encountering, especially those with incorrect drill files.

Leon

14

SallieSparkFun:
I do not want to immediately cancel orders when I can’t read the drill files, but I also do not want to hold up panels or other customers - it is a growing problem.

Hi Sallie, I have sent you multiple emails asking about what kind of delays the chinese new year is causing but I have never received a response. It has now been 23 days since my order (#4689) was submitted and the status still says “Panelized”. What gives?

Like I mentioned before I wouldn’t be upset if I was told in advance it would take more than 19 days or I had a little feedback about WHY my boards are late. A simple answer to when I will REALISTICALLY see them would make my day.

15

This community never fails to surprise me. Very sorry seravitae - I did not mean to insult. It’s customers like you that get things changed for the better.

I’ll talk to Sallie and Brennen here at SparkFun to see if we can’t get some changes made.

  1. Customer order cancel - once the order is panelized, it’ll be locked.

  2. Preview and test drill files

-Nathan

16

seravitae:
It’s not posts like mine that kill you guys, it’s a lack of communication complexed with a service not provided as you guaranteed, that puts a strike against your name.

Batchpcb has a guarantee? I looked on the site and cannot find any kind of statement that guarantees a delivery time for any of the PCBs. I made an order there late last year and, after reading through the FAQ, was under the impression my board would arrive between three and six weeks after the order was placed. It took about three and a half weeks and the quality was excellent.

I think the only real “problem” batchpcb has is the status update on the site isn’t fast enough for the instant gratification we are so used to.

As for the drill file errors, if there is a problem just instantly decline the order and send an automated email that tells them there is some kind of problem that cannot be processed. It’s not really worth it to batchpcb(as a company) to waste man power all day trying to accommodate a minority of problem customers(80/20 rule).

Anyway, I would like to thank you guys for a great service we couldn’t get anywhere else. I appreciate your pandering to us troublesome hobbyists and giving us a place to make our boards. I’m willing to wait a month for a board I only have to pay $20 for.

17

Since I was one of the people who posted to the other thread with a problem and since some the statements made on that thread are not exactly correct, I would like to clarify some points about my experience. Keep in mind this was my first board.

I have written software to both read and write Gerber, Excellon and other CNC file formats and appreciate the challenges of dealing with these files. The 274x format for Gerber files added the ability to embed the format into the file in a standard way. I don’t believe that the Excellon format has that capability yet (or else it is relatively new and not widely supporte yet). This causes the drill file to be more problematic than the artwork files.

Before submitting my job, I installed ViewMate and checked my artworks and drill file. They were OK. Also, the .png image generated by the web site showed the artworks and drills aligned properly.

Based on the FAQ, I got the impression that this was the timeline for the job. Right or wrong, this is what set my expectation.

4 or 5 business days for the board to be panelized. (I think the FAQ said panels go out every week, but there was a message on the web site about panels going out in 4 days because business was good)

5 business days for the board house to run the job.

3 business days to ship boards from board house to BatchPCB.

2-3 business days in priority mail.

During the 1 - 2 week period, I started to get concerned because the status still said “waiting panelization” so I sent some inquiry emails. After reading these threads and seeing that some people got boards back even though the status still said “waiting panelization” and even though they didn’t get replies to their emails either, I figured my job was probably progressing OK. But I did start to wonder - if the person processing my job doesn’t have time to update the web page, did they have time to panelize my design? It seems the former is minor task compared to the latter.

After 3 weeks I started to get concerned again because I was expecting something by this time, but then I saw Nathan’s post that jobs in the time frame in which I submitted mine had been delayed a bit but had shipped the prior day. Even though this was a few days longer than I expected and I was little disappointed, I was OK with this. Not a big enough problem to not use the service again. You have to understand, when I am waiting for a PCB, I am like a kid waiting for Christmas day. I fire up the soldering iron the night before just so everything is ready. I can’t wait to find out if my latest creation is going to work or burn the house down (again) :smiley:

After a few days it became clear that my board was not in the shipment Nathan had mentioned and I also got a very sad email from Sallie about the same time that my job had problems.:cry: I cried for hours (ok, maybe it was more like 30 seconds).

Since then, after exchanging several emails with Sallie, a few anomolies with my data have been identified.

  1. My CAD tool, which is DipTrace (maybe there is a hidden message in that name), always puts a sign (+/-) in the drill file (and only the drill file, not the artworks), even if the numbers are positive. If I recall correctly, although not typical, this is permitted by the standard and shouldn’t be a problem… but it looks like it might be for Sallie’s panelization tool (still investigating this).

  2. My CAD tool very wisely picks the format (x.y, w/wo trailing zeros) for me which I have no control over (I can choose inches or mm, but that is it). Now, for some reason it doesn’t pick the same format for both the artworks and the drill file. The artworks have leading zero suppression while the drill file has no zero suppression. I opened my drill file in Wordpad to see what format it was before submitting my job, but never looked at the artworks (probably because I knew the formatting was embedded in the file) so I didn’t even notice they were different. Some days I want to kill all people who write software. I just wish I wasn’t one of them. :oops:

  3. Sallie sent me a screen shot of the panelization tool that had the drill data 26 times the size of the artworks (ya - I measured the image on my screen with calipers). So the drill data was read in but it was 26x too big. Now 26x is very close to 25.4, so I think there may have been an issue with different units being used to read in the files. Yes, all of the files I sent to BatchPCB had the same units.

So… for future jobs, I am going to postprocess the files so that the drill and artworks use the same format and there are no sign characters (+/-)in the drill file.

A drill DRC might be a bit tricky. My first thought was comparing the extents of the artworks to the extents of the drill file as a sanity check. However, if the DRC doesn’t interpret the files the same way as the panelization tool does, I don’t think it will help.

My only real disappointment with BatchPCB was the amount of time it took to get to the point of realizing I had a problem to fix (29 days after I placed my order), but it sounds like Nathan and Sallie are working on that so I am looking forward to better results in the future. :smiley:

Keeping the status updated on the web page will also help people have confidence that their job is progressing, even if it is running a bit slower than normal. :smiley:

Lastly, it sounds like (at least some) panels might be going out more like every 2 weeks instead of every week. Stating this on the web page would help set more realistic expectations leading to less disappointment - and we all like less disappointment. :smiley:

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Greetings (No Name Supplied),

rms:
My CAD tool, which is DipTrace

I’m wondering why you are not using a more popular

CAD tool? The investment for EAGLE is modest…

Comments Welcome!

19

I have some good news for you! I received a tracking number for Panel 155 - the one that order 4689 is on. This means that it is on the way to SparkFun and should be here by the end the of the week, if not sooner.

I would also like to point out that your order was placed on January 26, which was a Saturday. The clock for the “19 days” would being on that Monday, January 28th. Today would make 17 business days from the date your order “began” and the 19 days that we quote doesn’t include time for the boards to be mailed to you - it is the turnaround to get the boards mailed. I’m sorry that there has been a delay, and that your emails were not answered, but hopefully we will still be able to get your boards out in a reasonable time frame.

I also hesitate to answer questions about Chinese New Year. There is not a set time that the boards are delayed. While Gold Phoenix is closed for one week, the BatchPCB boards are not high priority - one of the reasons we can keep the service cheap. So while I do have a set date for them to be closed, when they open, the panels are not immediately done on the first day they return to work. It makes it difficult to quote lead times and I don’t want to give anyone false information.

I am sorry that I didn’t get that information to you in an email earlier, but your boards should be here soon and to you as quickly as possible.

Thanks,

Sallie

20

SallieSparkFun:
I am sorry that I didn’t get that information to you in an email earlier, but your boards should be here soon and to you as quickly as possible.

Thanks,

Sallie

Thank you for the update and I look forward to seeing them.