Hi All,
I’ve tried working with both Xilinx and Altera FPGA tools at various times, and the one constant seems to be the ease of use of the Altera tools when compared to the Xilinx alternatives… To me it has always seemed that the Altera Quartus and MaxII software ‘just work’ while the Xilinx software requires a lot of effort and baffling documentation to get setup.
Can I get a quick show of hands as to who prefers what?
Personally I was planning to get the spartan III board SFE has until I noticed the Cyclone III board that Virtualcogs is preparing - it will plug right into their great looking ARM board giving a very powerful package.
http://www.virtualcogs.com/store/produc … ucts_id=72
My vote is with Altera, and if SFE stocks these, I’m certainly getting one.
This poll is far too narrow. You have not included Lattice or Actel. There may be others msising as well.
8-Dale
Very true. I haven’t done much in either. I’ve considered Xilinx to have the most available hardware. Of the four now mentioned in this thread, Actel is by FAR the least supported for development. I’d love to get my hands on an inexpensive ProASIC3 or even the chips themselves, but I haven’t found a supplier, and you still need a $200 programmer for it.
This is mostly due to the true flash nature.
This poll is far too narrow. You have not included Lattice or Actel. There may be others msising as well.
Please see -
http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=art … =CA6339519
from this article we can see
“There are a few other small players, but they’re so far down the list that almost nobody ever hears of them,” says Halfhill. In fact, Xilinx and Altera accounted for a combined 83.4 percent of the PLD market in 2005, according to iSuppli.
Still think this poll is too narrow? - by definition I’ve covered almost 85% of all sales with two options. Spark also has PSOC’s if we need an ‘other’ option for programmable logic.
Actually yes. I can get Xilinx hardware for probably less than Sparkfun can reasonably sell it. Probably the same for Altera hardware. Now, finding Lattice or Actel experimenter boards with their special features (Lattice = price, Actel = true NV IIRC) is either near impossible or IS impossible. For instance, Actel’s dev kit for their ProASIC3 runs about $500. However, as far as I saw, no one else offered ANY kind of dev board, smaller or larger. There is NO place to get single unit quantities of their chips either. Lattice is similar. Digikey used to carry them but that arrangement is now defunct. They have some very nice hardware in their low cost lines and are one of the oldest players in the market.
Everybody has free software support of one type or another. Not everybody has hobbyist available hardware, though.
While lattice has its good points (Low cost access to high end hard IP blocks), I’m still rooting for Actel. No power startup sequencing, no additional support memory, instant on, free Arm soft core, exceptionally low power, non volitality. Yes, no hard DSP blocks. I’m not too worried about that. It’s FPGA deep functionality with CPLD ease of use. Altera’s MAX II line is somewhat similar, but it’s still a SRAM FPGA in sheep’s clothing. I think one of the Spartan lines and one of Lattice’s chips are similar, with an onboard but still serial linked PROM.
Strike that, Actel is using Mouser for small quantity distribution. Lattice has their own store. Still not seeing what I’d classify as “low cost” hobbyist dev boards for either.
I’m still rooting for Actel. No power startup sequencing, no additional support memory, instant on, free Arm soft core, exceptionally low power, non volitality.
It sounds like Actel has a lot going for it - the connection of a (hard) Arm processor is one of the reasons I like the Cog stack approach, so having a free soft arm core is a bonus. The non-volatility also sounds like it has advantages.
Still not seeing what I’d classify as “low cost” hobbyist dev boards for either.
From my point of view that’s a problem - I’m the kind of learner that has always needed to learn by doing - simulating is one thing, working the kinks out is another. Do you have a link to the Actel boards, even if they are pricey?
Yes, I do. First, go and read some docs on Actel’s web site.
http://www.actel.com/
Next, Mouser has their dev boards (never seen anyone else’s) for sale. They’re cheaper than when I last went looking too. Last time I inquired through a local sales rep, though.
http://www.actel.com/products/buy/default.aspx
and
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/632/230.pdf
I wouldn’t bother with the ProASIC Plus. It needs a different programmer than the ProASIC3/Fusion/Igloo line, is slower, and costs more. It might run on higher voltages, though.
Greetings!
SOI_Sentinel:
I wouldn’t bother with the ProASIC Plus. It needs a different programmer than the ProASIC3/Fusion/Igloo line, is slower, and costs more. It might run on higher voltages, though.
I am interested in this line because of the ARM aspect. I am just getting into programming ARM MCUs with the LPC-2148. I already have all the necessary software installed to develop with all four manufacturer's (Xilinx, Altera, Lattice, and Actel) FPGAs. I've only tinkered with the Xilinx software so far though, and I don't have any FPGAs to use yet.
You said you could probably get FPGA stuff less expensively than Spark Fun can sell it… Are you talking about just the FPGAs themselves or also development boards? I need to save every penny I can on stuff, so if you’d be willing to help me out with that next month, it would be appreciated.
BTW, I did take your suggestion and got the Olimex ICD2 for PICs/dsPICs and have not regretted it on bit. It works great! :D:D
8-Dale
It all depends on what you want. I’ve seen a roadblock for the Actel ARM chips, though. None are currently stocked at Mouser, but the nonstock pricing is far higher than I was expecting.
As for hardware, it’s mostly a matter of taste. I re-reviewed Sparkfun’s Xilinx FPGA, and their price is actually very competitive. If you want a more “demo kit” like hardware, I’d look at digilent.
http://www.digilent.us/
They design all of Xilinx’s low cost demo/dev boards and are aimed squarely at the educational market. Their board pricing is similar, but it’s a more populated setup which may be bad depending on if you’re interested in embedded computing or high speed IO.
SOI_Sentinel:
It all depends on what you want. I’ve seen a roadblock for the Actel ARM chips, though. None are currently stocked at Mouser, but the nonstock pricing is far higher than I was expecting.
As for hardware, it’s mostly a matter of taste. I re-reviewed Sparkfun’s Xilinx FPGA, and their price is actually very competitive. If you want a more “demo kit” like hardware, I’d look at digilent.
http://www.digilent.us/
I really like the [[Spartan 3E Starter Board](http://www.digilent.us/Products/Detail.cfm?Nav1=Products&Nav2=Programmable&Prod=S3EBOARD). What I really want is a reasonably priced ARM9/FPGA board that can run full Linux. It would be nice if a board like this had a Spartan 3E 500K gate or larger FPGA on it. Some of the [[Techlologic boards](http://www.embeddedarm.com), such as the [[TS-7800](http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts7800-spec-h.htm). have this sort of setup. The FPGA doesn't look like it is very big though.
SOI_Sentinel:
They design all of Xilinx’s low cost demo/dev boards and are aimed squarely at the educational market. Their board pricing is similar, but it’s a more populated setup which may be bad depending on if you’re interested in embedded computing or high speed IO.
I am looking for something that can be applied to robotics as well a general embedded control. An ARM9 based Linux capable board with a large [[Xilinx Virtex-II Pro FPGA](http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/virtex/virtex_ii_pro_fpgas/capabilities/index.htm) would be extremely nice, but the price may be too high.
8-Dale](http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/virtex/virtex_ii_pro_fpgas/capabilities/index.htm)](http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts7800-spec-h.htm)](http://www.embeddedarm.com)](Digilent – Start Smart, Build Brilliant.)
Hmmm… tough one. The Actel boards are supporting the M1 or M7 cores, and I don’t think that there’s a Linux variety that supports it, nor do I think it may be fast enough. I’m finding some mention of a NIOS II implementation that supports linux, but I’m not finding a goldmine on a 30 second search. I know that the latest (litterally, they released it this week) version of Xilinx’s Microblaze has a MMU and has a Linux 2.6 kernel port.
Biggest issue you may find is that these are proprietary builds that may cost you something for the BSP. Xilinx has a vendor that ported their Linux. Their demo kit ($500) uses a Spartan 3E 1600.
You have some research in front of you 
SOI_Sentinel:
I’m finding some mention of a NIOS II implementation that supports linux, but I’m not finding a goldmine on a 30 second search. I know that the latest (litterally, they released it this week) version of Xilinx’s Microblaze has a MMU and has a Linux 2.6 kernel port.
I am aware of NIOS, and have the development software installed. :)
SOI_Sentinel:
Biggest issue you may find is that these are proprietary builds that may cost you something for the BSP. Xilinx has a vendor that ported their Linux. Their demo kit ($500) uses a Spartan 3E 1600.
I found this board. I just wish it didn't cost so much. Being on a fixed income really sucks sometimes.
SOI_Sentinel:
You have some research in front of you
Yes, indeed, and I am proceeding to Google around and check the Xilinx, Altera, Lattice, and Actel sites also. I am leaning pretty heavily towards Xilinx and Altera at this point.
8-Dale
linuxguy -
I really like the Spartan 3E Starter Board. What I really want is a reasonably priced ARM9/FPGA board that can run full Linux.
Have you looked at the COG stuff carried by SFE? The COG runs linux (not uClinux, the IC has an MMU) and they’re developing a Cyclone III board that plugs into the stack and becomes a memory mapped peripheral.
Could be what you’re looking for.
As I understand it, COGs are just waiting for enough demand to actually produce the FPGA board. Personally I’m grabbing one as soon as they come out.
Cannibal:
Have you looked at the COG stuff carried by SFE? The COG runs linux (not uClinux, the IC has an MMU) and they’re developing a Cyclone III board that plugs into the stack and becomes a memory mapped peripheral.
Oh yes, I have been looking at all the COG stuff. It is my understanding that some of the features of the i.MX21 MCU are not available for outside interfacing though, and this concerns me. Any MCU I use must give me access to ALL of its features, not some subset. I am still researching as to whether this is true of the i.MX21 COG and am very interested in using this in projects if I have access to ALL features of the i.MX21 MCU.
Cannibal:
Could be what you’re looking for.
It is possible. :)
Cannibal:
As I understand it, COGs are just waiting for enough demand to actually produce the FPGA board. Personally I’m grabbing one as soon as they come out.
Oh, I would love to see a nice FPGA board COG for the product line! I'd like to see at least two different FPGA sizes - a medium scale one (ala 500J gate Spartan 3E or equivalent) and the larger 1.6 million gate Spartan 3E FPGA or equivalent. I'm very interested in something that has the ability to run a soft core MCU such as the Microblaze or NIOS. I'm also interested in the [[Xilinx Virtex II Pro](http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/virtex/virtex_ii_pro_fpgas/index.htm) series or equivalent and larger FPGAs, but fear they may be out of my price range.
8-Dale](http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/virtex/virtex_ii_pro_fpgas/index.htm)
SOI_Sentinel:
What, no love for the Virtex 4 FX12?
I am interested in all the Virtex series FPGAs that have the Power PC core in them. :D
8-Dale
What, no love for the Virtex 4 FX12?
I have the FX12 board from avnet.com - very similar to that one but with engineering sample silicon (slower PPC core speed max).
I must say I like the Xilinx EDK, but the few months playing with this board and the rest of their tools is what has converted me to an Altera fan :?
linuxguy:
Cannibal:
Have you looked at the COG stuff carried by SFE? The COG runs linux (not uClinux, the IC has an MMU) and they’re developing a Cyclone III board that plugs into the stack and becomes a memory mapped peripheral.
Oh yes, I have been looking at all the COG stuff. It is my understanding that some of the features of the i.MX21 MCU are not available for outside interfacing though, and this concerns me. Any MCU I use must give me access to ALL of its features, not some subset. I am still researching as to whether this is true of the i.MX21 COG and am very interested in using this in projects if I have access to ALL features of the i.MX21 MCU.
Just as a point of interest, pretty much the only peripherals that we don’t offer in the i.MX21 COG connectors are:
-
the keypad controller (which is easily worked around by using any multitude of i2c keypad chips),
-
two or three GPIO (which are used internally on the board)
-
and the PCMCIA interface (which had buggy silicon and doesn’t work properly on these MX21s anyways)
VirtualDan:
Just as a point of interest, pretty much the only peripherals that we don’t offer in the i.MX21 COG connectors are:
-
the keypad controller (which is easily worked around by using any multitude of i2c keypad chips),
-
two or three GPIO (which are used internally on the board)
-
and the PCMCIA interface (which had buggy silicon and doesn’t work properly on these MX21s anyways)
Both of these would be very nice to have, but I understand why you would not want to make a buggy interface available. I am working on a 4x4 keyboard for my wheelchair lighting and onboard computer project, so the keyboard interface would have been nice to have.
I am leaning towards a dual ARM9 Linux based design with one being the lighting and I/O controller and the other being the onboard computer with fancy color display, etc. A COG stack could make a very nice small onboard computer. 
I would really like to see you add an FPGA type COG with a Xilix or Altera 1,000,000+ gate or equivalent par. I’d like to see some onCOG intelligence, such as an LPC-2148 or more powerful (maybe LPC-2378?) ARM7 MCU.
I am partial to the parts that have Linux based development software.
8-Dale
I’d like to see some onCOG intelligence, such as an LPC-2148 or more powerful (maybe LPC-2378?) ARM7 MCU.
Sounds interesting but could you describe the idea in more detail? I think their robotics cog already has a dedicated ARM7CPU?